I've done something today I've never done before in my 10 years of blogging here.
I've deleted the post that was here, but I've left up the comments.
I felt I was addressing a serious problem (the mistreatment of women), and in return I have been insulted in more ways than I can count (both on this blog and in an LDS mid-singles FB group).
Maybe I will re-address the issue some time but in a more carefully worded way. I will take the blame for the poor reception of the blog post because I was the writer. The fact that so many people thought this subject was open to mocking and insults tells me that I did not write it in a serious and factual enough context.
So if you came here looking for that blog post, sorry, it is gone.
I've deleted the post that was here, but I've left up the comments.
I felt I was addressing a serious problem (the mistreatment of women), and in return I have been insulted in more ways than I can count (both on this blog and in an LDS mid-singles FB group).
Maybe I will re-address the issue some time but in a more carefully worded way. I will take the blame for the poor reception of the blog post because I was the writer. The fact that so many people thought this subject was open to mocking and insults tells me that I did not write it in a serious and factual enough context.
So if you came here looking for that blog post, sorry, it is gone.
While I appreciate your sentiment, based on your experience, 1) you're branding all Mormon men, when we are not all like that. 2) if the women have helped perpetuate the climate based on their actions and putting up with it, they have mistaken trained the men to be exactly what they despise, and bear some responsibility.
ReplyDeleteYou're right, don't put up with it, but don't encourage it and then wonder why they behave like they do. You're treating them like pro athletes being recruited to a major college. The male ego thrives on choices and being told how wonderful they are.
Be the best you can be.. But don't lump all LDS men in that same boat. I am not one of them...
I am not putting "ALL" men in the same boat.
DeleteBut this is a ridiculous phenomena found primarily among Mormon men.
The few men I have met that don't do this are always welcome around here.
I agee, not all are like that. I've never had problems like that.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteKnowing you, I know for a fact that you deserve a good man and I know he's out there!
ReplyDelete{{HUGS}}
I agree with comments. You,and others like you are partly to blame because you enabled the jerk behavior by the jerks.I also bet that the 20 to 60 good Mormon men,would have loved to go on dates with you and the other gals,of the 10,15,20 gal harems of the 2 to 4 jerks.
ReplyDeleteBut ya never learned to stop being attracted to jerks, as you continue to be harem gals for the jerks,instead of dating good Mormon men.
Also not all are bad. A lot are good in fact.I am a good man,or at least try,do my best.
Also you and others like you are only making it harder for good Mormon men to date Mormon women by dating,marrying non members.
If you want to date,marry good Mormon men,stop being attracted to jerks,stop dating jerks, and date,marry good Mormon men.You have to be patient. You may need to expand your search,in order to find a good Mormon man.You may have to give some good Mormon men you might not be attracted to a chance. You might say "if he is a good Mormon man,I will be attracted to him".But despite what you think, there are some good Mormon men that a lot,not all,a lot of mormon women won't find attractive,because they are either not smart enough, not funny enough, or not good looking enough. You may have to give some of those type of good,faithful,honest,nice Mormon men, a chance.
If you don't give those kind of good,nice Mormon men a chance,then if you can't find,date, marry, a good Mormon man,then you would have to only yourself to blame.
I think you just missed most of the points!
Delete"If you don't give those kind of good, nice Mormon men a chance..."
What do you think I've been doing for the last 20 years of dating??
And, by the way, your response, "because you enabled the jerks," is classic language for actually perpetuating abuse by putting the blame on the victim and not the abuser.
Based on what I think,or interpret,what you said,or how it came across,it sounded like you were dating the harem jerk, and nonmembers,instead of the good non harem LDS men.
DeleteAlso when there is abuse,or mistreatment,sometimes the victim does enable the abuse.by refusing to date the abuser, and instead choos to date the good LDS man, you are in fact enabling the abuser.
That does not excuse the abuser.What the abuser did was wrong,and almost all the blame is on the abuser. But if you had not dated the abuser,and instead dated the good LDS man insteadthen you would not have been abused. Thus that's why a little tiny bit of the fault is on you,and almost all on the abuser.
Anonymous-
DeleteYou would again be wrong.
I am not dating the "harem jerk."
And most of these "harem jerks," as you call them, are exactly the ones that are perceived to be the good LDS guys (hence the reasons the girls tend to prefer them).
And for the record, most of these "harem jerks" tend to never date at all, preferring instead for lots of invites to come their way, and they cherry pick from among them.
In my ward the men outnumber the women at least 2:1. This is not in Utah. And I actually asked a girl out on a date, not even the first date, she agreed. The actual date was for 5 days later. Asked on a Saturday for a Wednesday. When I followed up on Monday evening, she did not respond. She called me on Tuesday to cancel. Apparently another guy had asked her out a few times beginning that weekend. It went fast. I was planning to talk about dating exclusively. She cancelled her date with me the day before said date, after agreeing to it four days earlier. It sure seems like she was just waiting for someone she liked better to come along. Girls who treat guys this way are also part of the problem. Why wasn't she just honest with me that she'd started dating someone else? Because she was playing some sort of game. Do not lump all single LDS men into the same boat. We are not all the problem you think we are. And you women seem to think that it's the guy's job to ask you out (which takes a lot of gumption for me to even do), and then you have the right to select whether or not I'm worth your time before you even get to know me. Then you complain that no one will date you. Yup, I've told my story to other men. Just like you women do to us with your other female friends. You are just as much a part of the problem as men are. And the solution is not just one-sided about men needing to grow up: women need to grow up too.
ReplyDeleteA woman who accepts a date and then cancels with advance notice is not the same thing as regularly and routinely not giving a commitment and treating others unfairly.
DeleteWhat she did was not cool, but she did play by the rules. She accepted a date. She canceled in advance. I'm sorry that hurt your feelings, but she did the right thing. And it was an isolated event.
Men who keep up this behavior of disrespecting women for 10-20+ years, are not in the same category as this woman.
What holy grail of wards is this?? ;)
DeleteForget yourself, and go to work. Serve others without any thought of or for yourself. Stop victimizing yourself, pitying yourself, be Christlike, don't judge all by the actions of some, one, or a few. Get over yourself and cast off your pride. Stop letting Satan control and guide your thoughts. Take control of your self, thoughts, and emotions. Be Christlike and stop worrying about dating and marriage and serve. If it doesn't happen in this life time, you have all eternity if your are faithful to God and his commandments. Be kind to all with no strings attached and no hidden agenda of wanting dates. Be the person you want to be, not to impress others. Maybe he's just not into you. Everyone feels this at one time or another in their life, and many feel it many times. It's the facts of social life. Maybe you're not as good and hot as you think. Many consider this at times. I as a Mormon man don't want to date just because it is a duty, or a Mormon woman makes me feel like I should because she makes me feel like it is my duty. I date because I am physically attracted to her at first, want to get to know her second, then want to fall madly in love with her third. Be nice. Don't make men a hobby. Get another hobby. Look inside yourself and work on yourself. Don't work on him. Be the woman of Christ you want a man to be like Christ. Be physically and sexually attractive. Have natural affection and be affectionate. Be respectful to a man and to men. Your words are not respectful, but put men down. Don't general man. Get over being a scorned woman. Satan is controlling you because you are not taking control of your thoughts of depression and pain from real life social pressure and pain all feel in this Church. You sound like you need to grow up. Stop complaining and be like Sister Monson, of whom it was said never complained. From what and how you write, I don't want to get to know you or date you, you're negative and put men down. I want a woman who lifts me up and comforts me as I do her. Pres. Monson has told men, "make sure she respects you to" You need to get some humility and respect men girl. Stop acting like a self-absorbed little girl. Your behavior and words are a major turn off. Men are not hear to worship you or women, but God. Turn off the TV and stop listening to false media and pop culture gods and prophets.
ReplyDeleteI will only leave this comment up so that you can bury yourself.
DeleteYou don't know me. You don't know my behavior, and you have certainly made some very large (and entirely incorrect) assumptions about me based on one blog post.
Satan does not control me or my thoughts. I am not depressed. In fact, I am a very happy, out-going, kind person.
"Stop complaining and be like Sister Monson, of whom it was said never complained." I highly doubt President Monson ever told Sister Monson he was going to wait a week or two before letting her know if he would come to her dinner party, while he waited for more interesting offers.
Turn off the TV? What TV?
" Be Christlike and stop worrying about dating and marriage and serve."
Again, dude, you don't know me, or how I live my life.
I won't delete your comment just so other people can see what sort of crap women have to put up with from self-absorbed, holier than thou, jerks like you.
First, learn how to use paragraphs. Second, I've met Erin and we have several mutual friends. She is as she says, outgoing, happy, upbeat and has a fun spirit about her.
DeleteI in fact nodded along with her entire post. I have also experienced this phenomenon constantly, ESPECIALLY as the co-chair to the dating committee in my mid singles ward. Talk about first hand experience trying to sell tickets to commitment phobes who can't get it together to make plans one-two weeks in advance.
Finally, I've given up on the Mormon men my age. I am treated better, more like a woman/lady by my 20-something triathlon guy friends than any Mormon man I've dated or even been friends with. Even in a platonic relationship, 20-something non member boys act more like gentlemen than any Mormon man that's taken me on a date.
Is marrying a Mormon man really what is important to you or is it simply what the faith represents? Is being in a relationship really what you want?
ReplyDeleteMy comment was written to help the author with self reflection on what it is she truly wants out of life. The answer doesn't matter to me. She stated that she stopped dating men who weren't Mormon to set an example to youth. Why is that more important than enjoying dates with someone? Why write an emotionally charged blog post? Why delete it? Finding what is most important to you can help you work on your goal. Sometimes it takes a lot of thought and sometimes it can help you change your behavior.
DeleteRespect is easy to get, just give it. It will come back to you. Avoid the people who don't treat you well. (Like she said she is doing.)
I am the author.
DeleteYour intentions are duly noted.
Why was setting an example to the youth more important that enjoying dates with someone?
Because sometimes we have to make sacrifices to help the younger generation learn. And I felt during that time period that was the better thing to do.
Why write an emotionally charged blog post?
My blog, my perogative. And I wanted to bring an important issue up.
Why delete it?
Because people, including you, were completely missing the real point. As a writer, I take that personally. I will re-write and re-visit the subject in a better format later.
"Sometimes it takes a lot of thought... to change your behavior."
And since apparently most people aren't willing to put that thought and effort in before replying to a blog post, and instead sent emotional, insulting responses to me, I deleted the post.
Wow. Guess what guys, if you anonymously reply to someone's heartfelt words with insults and blaming, take a long look in the mirror. YOU ARE NOT A NICE GUY. Stop blaming women for not liking such a "nice" guy as yourself and start looking at possible reasons. Have you considered the possibility that YOU are the one chasing jerks? Don't just dwell on the women who have rejected you, identify women you wouldn't date, ask yourself why not, and decide if those are good reasons and then whether some women have similar reasons to not date you and if there's anything you can change.
ReplyDeleteI was just thinking the same thing. If you don't have the courage to not post "anonymously," then why even read your knee-jerk reactions to Erin's post? Reading this I went back over my dating past to try and see if I was ever guilty of this behavior. Though I was never "master of a harem," I can think of a few times where instead of replying "no thank you" right away to invites I let them simmer and then weaseled out later. Now, as a mid-single, I find myself fairly transparent and honest in regards to my interest in someone. Its a lesson I wish I had better mastered during the dating intrigue wars at BYU :)
ReplyDeleteErin, good for you for not putting up with the crap. Chin up, friend.
ReplyDeleteThis was well written Erin.
ReplyDeleteI would like to point out though that this phenomenon cuts both ways. I've seen guys and girls with "harems". The reason for each harem seems obvious. The owner was beautiful to behold. They had some of the qualities that make a wonderful companion. But when they behave as you've described they show that they are immature. So don't put up with the crap. I've seen too many friends marry that beautiful but immature soul and find their own soul beaten and lonely 10 years down the road.
For any that receive this type of "can I tell you later?" answer to an invitation to which it isn't appropriate I say speak up. Tell the person that it's not an open invitation. Then after they've missed it tell them all about what they've missed. Or tell them that they can try to answer later, but you're not waiting for them and the seat at the table may be filled already. Then do your best to make sure it IS filled before they get back to you.
In the end, don't expect the immature soul to mature unless someone wakes them up to what they're doing. Hopefully your post will help a few with that.
Not everyone will marry in this life. Maybe you will feel at peace if you accept what you can't control and move on from dating. No one "deserves" anything based on what we have done in this life, we are at the will of our Father who knows best and chooses what we are blessed with in this life.
ReplyDeleteyea as a guy who has attended 7 years in a singles ward I see this a lot. However, what is failed to mentioned is that while there are 8-10 harem drooling over one guy, there are 15 guys, and really good guys, hoping to get just a little attention but most likely will never get it because he is enough, attractive/successful/"spiritual" enough. It s only when some of the single women get older that they may consider lowering their standard and start seeing the slightly less attractive, successful/spiritual guy on their radar. so lets not neglect this other reality before we point fingers.
ReplyDeleteAs someone who has been in Singles wards on and off for 18 years...It goes both ways. I've seen women reject men for the pettiest of reasons. However, someone once said, 90% of the guys in a singles ward date 10% of the girls. I saw that time and time again.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, what's more important to me isn't pointing blame at the men or the women. Can't we all just love each other and support Erin in her time of need?
you should check out this blog. It is an LDS woman I think you can relate to. she puts up her dating issues and has called men out occasion. http://datingmrsex.blogspot.com/
ReplyDeleteI can sympathize as I find men in my ward are just friends with all of us and I feel your pain. Know that the lord is preparing a man for you and some day you will find him.
I've seen the harems and as a Mormon guy I've wondered how those jerks do it. Not that I want to try it myself just seems like a difficult feat. I'm 100% for women not putting up with this garbage so that guys on the outside of the harem situation can get a chance.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry you have a broken heart Erin, been there, hate that. I think it is good to see you are not broken spirited since that will help carry you through. Thanks for your post it helped remind me to focus more on respecting women the way they (and everyone) deserves.
"But if we change the players to a Single Woman inviting a Mormon Man to a party/date/outing/dinner/anything and he replied in a similar manner, the Single Woman would be expected to send 5 more follow up emails and hold her breath, never knowing for sure until the day of if he would show up.
ReplyDeleteThis would be normal and expected."
What in the what? I have never, NEVER done this. Nor have I ever, EVER heard of or witnessed my friends doing this. What in the? Only in certain circles of the criminally insane, I guess. So let's hold off on the calling this "normal and expected." Sheez, LDS women. Get a grip.
true scenario at may ward: at munch and mingle a few years ago. A good looking guy/successful/Spiritual guy sat down at a table with myself and 4 other girls. Then I say hi to one girls by calling out her name, five times. I realized that she was completely focused on this other guy. THEN i realized that the other girls where intensely gazing at this fella as well. The best part was this....At my last attempt to say hello she,simultaneously, called the guy out, just like I did, and he was so focused on his food that he did not noticed her existence. Karma? The best part was that he marries someone outside the church. Many girls crying that day......oh I forgot to mentioned: The bishops wife had to brief the sisters on saying yes to being asked out on a date since all the guys were being denied so much. Its so embarrassing for all of us guys in this ward. Luckily there is always BRAZIL/Russia as a last resort.
ReplyDeleteI'll keep it going even though you've deleted the post. This was entirely too entertaining. Erin, I appreciate a good blog posting out of anger. Thanks for posting it. Even though you have removed it, it's very sad.
ReplyDeleteSecond, Those of you trolling and posting under Anonymous, go back to the corners of the web. Seriously, man up and put your name to things. Talking about your non-descriptive experiences, make you as plausible as a fat guy pretending you're a 14 year old girl in chat rooms.
Third, I can look at almost every comment in this post that relates to dating, and being LDS, and break it down to a lot of people in the LDS singles world have preconceived notions of what their life is supposed to be like. Many of you have the notion in your head of what that "spouse" should be like. Also, what that "life" should be like. I see comments like "A good looking guy/successful/Spiritual guy sat down at a table with myself and 4 other girls", and already you're quantifying yourself as not having those characteristics.
Fourth, I'm not saying this to be rude, but those of you LDS singles in their 30's, there's a reason WHY you're single. This applies to women and men. Put bluntly, you're not going to have that life is traditionally and stereotypically LDS. Why not cherish that? It's why God has put you on this Earth. To be non-traditional. As one of those immature 30 something guys, I'm single because I want to be. It's as simple as that.
Lastly Erin, I got what you were saying, that you're empowered and that you're flipping this thing on it's head and not putting up with it. That you deserve better. I got that. However, let me ask you this, any rage post, be it in Journal, Blog, or Forum post comes from the soul. There's no covering that wizard. So, is the truth that you will only be happy if you find that man? Do you really deserve better? Isn't this all just a qualification position/stance that you're taking? That anger you felt isn't just going to go away. Because, of the importance of marriage in our religion, 9 out of 10 members lose the forest for the trees, in my opinion. The Dalai Lama has said, "Everybody wants a happy life and a peaceful mind, but we have to produce peace of mind through our own practice."
Last, it's good to see Bill Ence commenting on crap about being single. I feel like I'm in my mid 20's again.
-Terence (Boom suckas!)
I read this article, and I think most of the people who responded completely missed the point. I'm sorry that people have been so rude to you.
ReplyDeleteAttraction is a chemical reaction. I honestly think the harem jerks aren't that attracted to their harem. I wouldn't want to date someone who wasn't attracted to me. Men can't express their alpha if women are throwing themselves at them as in a harem.
ReplyDeleteCan you please repost it?
ReplyDelete